The United Nations Security Council has become paralysed. The world’s great powers still have not come to recognise the limits of their own power. UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres made these remarks in some of his sharpest comments yet on the “culture of impunity” and division prevailing in global leadership. He made the comments in an exclusive interview with The Hindu on the sidelines of the 18th BRICS summit. Key excerpts from that interview follow.
Question: In a speech last year, you said the risk of breaking the “never again” promise on genocide is dangerously rising. Eighty years after World War II and the founding of the UN, do you feel the organisation is no longer capable of fulfilling the role it was created for?
Guterres: Let’s be very clear about one thing first. The UN has ensured we haven’t faced a third world war. We have many conflicts in different parts of the world. But the two superpowers haven’t gone to direct war against each other. And that has largely been possible because of the UN’s work over the past 18 years. The problem is that we’re now in a period of sharp geopolitical division. On one side are certain great powers that still haven’t acknowledged the limits of their own power, and are engaging in operations with devastating consequences. This division among the great powers has created a kind of impunity for middle powers to start wars.
Question: There are reports that various groups in Yemen have seized the Bab al-Mandeb strait. Can the UN offer any assistance in this situation?
Guterres: We’re trying to help as much as possible on the fundamental issue of ensuring freedom of navigation. The right and freedom of navigation must be respected everywhere — the Black Sea, the Strait of Hormuz, and Bab al-Mandeb. This is extremely important. No tolls should be collected, and permission cannot be granted to one party while denied to another. Freedom of navigation is a fundamental principle we’re defending. Alongside this, the UN has become involved in creating and proposing arrangements to allow at least some exceptions for the transport of food and fertiliser.
Question: Leaders and senior officials from Iran, the UAE and Saudi Arabia are present at the BRICS summit. Will you use this opportunity to build political goodwill?
Guterres: I’ve spoken with all of them. But the problem is, when the great powers are divided, nothing commands respect. Everyone feels they can do as they please. And we’re seeing middle powers getting drawn into various conflicts too. Look at Sudan. How many countries are involved in the Sudan conflict? It would have been enough if the conflict stayed confined to the Sudanese people themselves. But many more countries have since become involved, because a kind of impunity mindset has taken hold there.
Question: The future of global governance is being discussed at the BRICS summit. Has the time come for a reformed UN, or for overhauling the multilateral system entirely?
Guterres: We’ve been pushing for fundamental reform for a long time. And the core issue here is one of power. We still have a number of institutions, multilateral bodies and economic governance structures that reflect the world as it was in 1945. It’s clear the UN needs deep reform, particularly at the Security Council. We’re carrying out many reforms across various areas of the UN’s operations. But the central question is one of power.
Question: The question is, if the UN has become ineffective, does it need reform, or should an entirely new system be established instead?
Guterres: But the UN hasn’t collapsed. Look at the massive humanitarian work the UN is carrying out across the world. Despite shrinking resources and various cuts, no UN institution has collapsed. They’re still working in the world’s most dangerous areas and helping people there. Look at peacekeeping operations — UN peacekeepers are still active in the world’s most dangerous regions.
Question: The UN recently adopted a proposal to reform the map to better reflect the true size of different territories. Has India raised concerns about that map on the UN website, where parts of India’s territory disputed with Pakistan and China are shown separately?
Guterres: There is actually no such thing as a “UN map with borders.” The proposal adopted at the General Assembly is not a map at all. That proposal addresses the kind of distortions created by depicting territories’ true size and historical power relations. I think correcting those would be worthwhile. But the UN has not published any map that determines borders. Determining any country’s borders isn’t the UN’s job either. So it has no bearing on the border or disputed territory between two countries.
Question: There is a map on the UN website that’s being viewed as a new map.
Guterres: That is not any official UN map. It’s a contribution provided by a private organisation (NGO). The map exists purely as an illustrative reference. But the UN has not offered any definition or decision there regarding where any country’s borders should be.
Question: This is certainly one of the challenges you’ve faced as UN secretary-general — the India-Pakistan conflict also comes up here. During your first visit to India in 2018, you expressed hope of helping with the India-Pakistan situation and offered your “good offices” for mediation if needed. Was there ever a time you actually mediated between the two countries? The United States claims it has.
Guterres: I don’t know whether the United States mediated or not. Let me be clear — I am not a mediator. I respect both countries. I discuss various matters with the leaders of both nations. I hope the two countries will be able to sit together one day. But the UN is not directly involved in any mediation process. Any mediation requires the consent of both parties. That consent isn’t there.
Question: It’s no longer just that the great powers are fighting wars — they’re now also proposing alternatives to the UN, such as the United States’ “Board of Peace” and China’s “Global Governance Initiative.”
Guterres: Do you think the “Board of Peace” is an alternative system?
Question: The United States is presenting it that way.
Guterres: The United States has also always said it isn’t meant to replace the UN. And with China’s “Global Governance Initiative” too, it’s clear that the UN must remain at the centre of global governance.
Question: But these are unilateral initiatives that are taking the place of what the UN’s own system is supposed to do.
Guterres: These initiatives aren’t correcting any flaw in the UN’s work. And let me be clear about the “Board of Peace” — it’s essentially a proposal for resolving the Gaza situation. To be clear, it is not an initiative to replace the UN. The UN is working across the entire world.
Question: Another threat to the UN is coming from Israel. The country hasn’t just withdrawn from many UN institutions — it has personally declared you “persona non grata” and denied you a visa. Beyond that, many UN officials have been killed.
Guterres: I didn’t ask for any visa. If one thing has been clear, it’s that the UN — and I take responsibility for this myself — has always taken an unambiguous position. Whether in the Russia conflict or the Israel-Palestine conflict, the UN has consistently stood as an important reference point and standard in favour of the charter, international law and international humanitarian law. Unfortunately, various countries in the world, sometimes even some of the most responsible ones, have decided that international law need not be respected, and that the law of force should prevail over the force of law. We are not responsible for that.
Question: Do you believe Israel’s war in Gaza falls into the category of genocide you referred to in that “never again” statement?
Guterres: “Genocide” is a legal definition, and the authority to determine it rests with courts, and in principle with the International Criminal Court. What we are saying is that what is happening in Gaza is entirely condemnable. It is completely unacceptable. It is a horrific violation of every principle of international law. But we are not offering any legal definition of it. It is so horrific that it doesn’t even need that label to be recognised as such.
Question: Do you want it formally recognised as genocide, legally?
Guterres: That isn’t our role. Determining the legal definition of what happens in various situations isn’t our job.
Question: So what happens if another country decides it too will bar UN officials, including the secretary-general, from entering, and carries out killings of this kind?
Guterres: The UN doesn’t have the power to stop that. And that is precisely the problem I described at the start.
Question: The UN secretary-general election is happening this year. Do you feel you need another term to resolve these problems?
Guterres: No, I don’t need another term at all.
Question: Many of the candidates for your post are women. Do you hope your successor will be the UN’s first woman secretary-general?
Guterres: I don’t want to interfere in this election campaign. But I do think it’s entirely natural for women to have the opportunity to reach the highest positions at the UN, as in any other country. It’s a matter of gender equality and gender balance. Over the past 10 years, we’ve achieved full parity between women and men across 170 leadership positions at the UN. Fifty-five percent of UN resident coordinators around the world are now women.
Question: The real meaning of a “glass ceiling” is that women hold many important positions in an institution, but not the very top one. Would you like to see a woman as UN secretary-general?
Guterres: I would be very happy with that.
Question: In your view, what is your greatest achievement, and your greatest failure?
Guterres: Others will have to judge what my achievements or failures are. What satisfies me most is that over the past 10 years, we’ve been able to handle various crises while fully respecting the UN’s founding principles. We’ve never applied double standards. My biggest failure has been our inability to convince countries — particularly those holding the main instruments of power — that the institutions of global governance, especially the Security Council, must be seriously reformed.
Question: I thought you might say the fight against climate change, and countries’ insufficient commitment to the Green Climate Fund…
Guterres: That isn’t a UN failure. The UN is at the forefront of the fight against climate change. It is a failure of member states, who keep prioritising their own short-term interests over an issue that matters for the survival of humanity.
Question: Have you thought about what you’ll do next, after leaving the post of UN secretary-general?
Guterres: I have no idea at all. I’m working hard to properly fulfil my responsibilities until December 31. What happens after that, we’ll see then.